[Moo] First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

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[Moo] First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Benjamin Kuker
As a result of a conversation in another thread about helping jumpstart the MooTools community and development, I thought I would try my hand at refreshing the look of the website. A couple things before I share the links to the mockups, though.
  1. The look of the current website isn't bad. I've done my best to try to capture the spirit of it in the mockups while still making it new.
  2. This would be more of a facelift than a complete overhaul. I'm not completely sure how everything is pulled into the site from GitHub, but I don't think there would have to be any major content rewrites.
  3. The purpose for the redesign is to show the community that MooTools is still alive and active, while making some slight improvements.
The primary goals are:
  1. Make it easier for new users to figure out what to do and get started.
  2. Maintain the same general structure for existing MooTools users in order to minimize friction because of the transition.
  3. Place a bigger emphasis on community.
  4. Make the site responsive and accessible for mobile devices. For this, I would use my new UI framework, based on MooTools.
I've only created two image mockups at this point to get feedback before going any further. I've put them up on GitHub. Here are the mockups for a new front page and a documentation page (you'll probably have to enlarge them in your browser).

For the front page, I wanted to make it clearer what to do when you get there. The current page has a lot of text, which I wanted to reduce and streamline. I also felt that visually showing the logos of sites using MooTools is much more impactful than just using links. The footer, which would appear on every page of the site, would have dynamic links to the blog, as well as links to various social media accounts or communities which already exist. This will make blog updates more apparent, grow the community in more channels, and have the added benefit of more SEO power to the link targets.

The docs page is largely unchanged from its current form. I did remove the left column in favor of a two column layout to make more room for the actual content. The Core classes navigation would all be viewable by clicking on the gray "View All Core Classes" button, which would slide them into view. The large title across the top would also function as a breadcrumb.

So, all that said, I'd love to get your feedback. Do you love it? Hate it? Have suggestions for improvements? This is just a first iteration and the margins and alignment aren't all perfect yet, I just wanted to get something out there. The next steps would be to iterate based on feedback, produce more mockups for different pages on the site, and then to do a live prototype. It would also be helpful if someone could explain how the website is currently compiled, as that might have some impact on the design and implementation. Can't wait to hear what you think.

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Re: [Moo] First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

nutron
I love it. The big icons (below the logo) are a little too big for my tastes, but that's a personal preference that I'm happy to cope with on my own. More importantly is the fact that it pulls a lot of new content onto the page and makes it clear what resources are available.

Some small thoughts:
  • I think the version number should maybe be on the download button.
  • I might mention something along the lines that it's "ready for mobile"
  • We should be able to feature the books that have been written about MooTools (I'm fine if mine isn't featured; it's outdated anyway)

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a result of a conversation in another thread about helping jumpstart the MooTools community and development, I thought I would try my hand at refreshing the look of the website. A couple things before I share the links to the mockups, though.
  1. The look of the current website isn't bad. I've done my best to try to capture the spirit of it in the mockups while still making it new.
  2. This would be more of a facelift than a complete overhaul. I'm not completely sure how everything is pulled into the site from GitHub, but I don't think there would have to be any major content rewrites.
  3. The purpose for the redesign is to show the community that MooTools is still alive and active, while making some slight improvements.
The primary goals are:
  1. Make it easier for new users to figure out what to do and get started.
  2. Maintain the same general structure for existing MooTools users in order to minimize friction because of the transition.
  3. Place a bigger emphasis on community.
  4. Make the site responsive and accessible for mobile devices. For this, I would use my new UI framework, based on MooTools.
I've only created two image mockups at this point to get feedback before going any further. I've put them up on GitHub. Here are the mockups for a new front page and a documentation page (you'll probably have to enlarge them in your browser).

For the front page, I wanted to make it clearer what to do when you get there. The current page has a lot of text, which I wanted to reduce and streamline. I also felt that visually showing the logos of sites using MooTools is much more impactful than just using links. The footer, which would appear on every page of the site, would have dynamic links to the blog, as well as links to various social media accounts or communities which already exist. This will make blog updates more apparent, grow the community in more channels, and have the added benefit of more SEO power to the link targets.

The docs page is largely unchanged from its current form. I did remove the left column in favor of a two column layout to make more room for the actual content. The Core classes navigation would all be viewable by clicking on the gray "View All Core Classes" button, which would slide them into view. The large title across the top would also function as a breadcrumb.

So, all that said, I'd love to get your feedback. Do you love it? Hate it? Have suggestions for improvements? This is just a first iteration and the margins and alignment aren't all perfect yet, I just wanted to get something out there. The next steps would be to iterate based on feedback, produce more mockups for different pages on the site, and then to do a live prototype. It would also be helpful if someone could explain how the website is currently compiled, as that might have some impact on the design and implementation. Can't wait to hear what you think.

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Re: [Moo] First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Andrea Dessì
I agree it is pretty fine!

My two cents:
The version number within the download button and near a link to archived versions
The main icons maybe a little smaller

--
Andrea

Il giorno 20/mar/2013, alle ore 22:42, Aaron Newton <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

I love it. The big icons (below the logo) are a little too big for my tastes, but that's a personal preference that I'm happy to cope with on my own. More importantly is the fact that it pulls a lot of new content onto the page and makes it clear what resources are available.

Some small thoughts:
  • I think the version number should maybe be on the download button.
  • I might mention something along the lines that it's "ready for mobile"
  • We should be able to feature the books that have been written about MooTools (I'm fine if mine isn't featured; it's outdated anyway)

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a result of a conversation in another thread about helping jumpstart the MooTools community and development, I thought I would try my hand at refreshing the look of the website. A couple things before I share the links to the mockups, though.
  1. The look of the current website isn't bad. I've done my best to try to capture the spirit of it in the mockups while still making it new.
  2. This would be more of a facelift than a complete overhaul. I'm not completely sure how everything is pulled into the site from GitHub, but I don't think there would have to be any major content rewrites.
  3. The purpose for the redesign is to show the community that MooTools is still alive and active, while making some slight improvements.
The primary goals are:
  1. Make it easier for new users to figure out what to do and get started.
  2. Maintain the same general structure for existing MooTools users in order to minimize friction because of the transition.
  3. Place a bigger emphasis on community.
  4. Make the site responsive and accessible for mobile devices. For this, I would use my new UI framework, based on MooTools.
I've only created two image mockups at this point to get feedback before going any further. I've put them up on GitHub. Here are the mockups for a new front page and a documentation page (you'll probably have to enlarge them in your browser).

For the front page, I wanted to make it clearer what to do when you get there. The current page has a lot of text, which I wanted to reduce and streamline. I also felt that visually showing the logos of sites using MooTools is much more impactful than just using links. The footer, which would appear on every page of the site, would have dynamic links to the blog, as well as links to various social media accounts or communities which already exist. This will make blog updates more apparent, grow the community in more channels, and have the added benefit of more SEO power to the link targets.

The docs page is largely unchanged from its current form. I did remove the left column in favor of a two column layout to make more room for the actual content. The Core classes navigation would all be viewable by clicking on the gray "View All Core Classes" button, which would slide them into view. The large title across the top would also function as a breadcrumb.

So, all that said, I'd love to get your feedback. Do you love it? Hate it? Have suggestions for improvements? This is just a first iteration and the margins and alignment aren't all perfect yet, I just wanted to get something out there. The next steps would be to iterate based on feedback, produce more mockups for different pages on the site, and then to do a live prototype. It would also be helpful if someone could explain how the website is currently compiled, as that might have some impact on the design and implementation. Can't wait to hear what you think.

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Re: [Moo] First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

John-David Dalton
Thank you so much Benjamin!
You're the kind of dev project leads dream of :3

- JDD


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Andrea D. <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree it is pretty fine!

My two cents:
The version number within the download button and near a link to archived versions
The main icons maybe a little smaller

--
Andrea

Il giorno 20/mar/2013, alle ore 22:42, Aaron Newton <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

I love it. The big icons (below the logo) are a little too big for my tastes, but that's a personal preference that I'm happy to cope with on my own. More importantly is the fact that it pulls a lot of new content onto the page and makes it clear what resources are available.

Some small thoughts:
  • I think the version number should maybe be on the download button.
  • I might mention something along the lines that it's "ready for mobile"
  • We should be able to feature the books that have been written about MooTools (I'm fine if mine isn't featured; it's outdated anyway)

On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a result of a conversation in another thread about helping jumpstart the MooTools community and development, I thought I would try my hand at refreshing the look of the website. A couple things before I share the links to the mockups, though.
  1. The look of the current website isn't bad. I've done my best to try to capture the spirit of it in the mockups while still making it new.
  2. This would be more of a facelift than a complete overhaul. I'm not completely sure how everything is pulled into the site from GitHub, but I don't think there would have to be any major content rewrites.
  3. The purpose for the redesign is to show the community that MooTools is still alive and active, while making some slight improvements.
The primary goals are:
  1. Make it easier for new users to figure out what to do and get started.
  2. Maintain the same general structure for existing MooTools users in order to minimize friction because of the transition.
  3. Place a bigger emphasis on community.
  4. Make the site responsive and accessible for mobile devices. For this, I would use my new UI framework, based on MooTools.
I've only created two image mockups at this point to get feedback before going any further. I've put them up on GitHub. Here are the mockups for a new front page and a documentation page (you'll probably have to enlarge them in your browser).

For the front page, I wanted to make it clearer what to do when you get there. The current page has a lot of text, which I wanted to reduce and streamline. I also felt that visually showing the logos of sites using MooTools is much more impactful than just using links. The footer, which would appear on every page of the site, would have dynamic links to the blog, as well as links to various social media accounts or communities which already exist. This will make blog updates more apparent, grow the community in more channels, and have the added benefit of more SEO power to the link targets.

The docs page is largely unchanged from its current form. I did remove the left column in favor of a two column layout to make more room for the actual content. The Core classes navigation would all be viewable by clicking on the gray "View All Core Classes" button, which would slide them into view. The large title across the top would also function as a breadcrumb.

So, all that said, I'd love to get your feedback. Do you love it? Hate it? Have suggestions for improvements? This is just a first iteration and the margins and alignment aren't all perfect yet, I just wanted to get something out there. The next steps would be to iterate based on feedback, produce more mockups for different pages on the site, and then to do a live prototype. It would also be helpful if someone could explain how the website is currently compiled, as that might have some impact on the design and implementation. Can't wait to hear what you think.

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[Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Benjamin Kuker
In reply to this post by Benjamin Kuker
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Barry van Oudtshoorn
I'd like to chime in re: the download button. I think you maybe need to have the main download button (perhaps with version number) just download the latest full minified Core, with a link below saying "customise" or "other versions" or something. Even better if clicking the main button started the download and landed you on a page explaining what it is you've just downloaded, and how to get started using it.

Also, I think the redesign as a whole looks great. For the docs, though, I find that I jump between classes much more than I jump around within the page -- so perhaps move the page contents into the combo box and list the classes out explicitly.

I also think it'd be nice to have a little bit more colour injected: the grey tones make the "download" button stand out nicely, but then it just becomes very grey... I don't think you'd need much -- just a few subtle highlights here and there would give it a little bit more vim, in my opinion. I think that the docs could certainly use colour to differentiate between the various heading levels more effectively: I can't tell at a glance that "Property: initialize" is a lower-level hading than "Returns" (although I can make that inference when I see "Examples" and "Class example" right next to each other).

On 21/03/13 07:32, Benjamin Kuker wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?
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-- 
Barry van Oudtshoorn
www.barryvan.com.au

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Erik Cervin Edin
In reply to this post by Benjamin Kuker
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Arian Stolwijk-2
like


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:41 AM, Erik Cervin Edin <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Benjamin Kuker
In reply to this post by Erik Cervin Edin
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="6AnQYxFtKvUJ">con...@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Benjamin Kuker
In reply to this post by Barry van Oudtshoorn
Good suggestions across the board. I'll incorporate them in the next draft.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:37:28 PM UTC-7, Barryvan wrote:
I'd like to chime in re: the download button. I think you maybe need to have the main download button (perhaps with version number) just download the latest full minified Core, with a link below saying "customise" or "other versions" or something. Even better if clicking the main button started the download and landed you on a page explaining what it is you've just downloaded, and how to get started using it.

Also, I think the redesign as a whole looks great. For the docs, though, I find that I jump between classes much more than I jump around within the page -- so perhaps move the page contents into the combo box and list the classes out explicitly.

I also think it'd be nice to have a little bit more colour injected: the grey tones make the "download" button stand out nicely, but then it just becomes very grey... I don't think you'd need much -- just a few subtle highlights here and there would give it a little bit more vim, in my opinion. I think that the docs could certainly use colour to differentiate between the various heading levels more effectively: I can't tell at a glance that "Property: initialize" is a lower-level hading than "Returns" (although I can make that inference when I see "Examples" and "Class example" right next to each other).

On 21/03/13 07:32, Benjamin Kuker wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?
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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Arian Stolwijk-2
We've created a central place where people can contribute ideas and designs for MooTools:



On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good suggestions across the board. I'll incorporate them in the next draft.


On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:37:28 PM UTC-7, Barryvan wrote:
I'd like to chime in re: the download button. I think you maybe need to have the main download button (perhaps with version number) just download the latest full minified Core, with a link below saying "customise" or "other versions" or something. Even better if clicking the main button started the download and landed you on a page explaining what it is you've just downloaded, and how to get started using it.

Also, I think the redesign as a whole looks great. For the docs, though, I find that I jump between classes much more than I jump around within the page -- so perhaps move the page contents into the combo box and list the classes out explicitly.

I also think it'd be nice to have a little bit more colour injected: the grey tones make the "download" button stand out nicely, but then it just becomes very grey... I don't think you'd need much -- just a few subtle highlights here and there would give it a little bit more vim, in my opinion. I think that the docs could certainly use colour to differentiate between the various heading levels more effectively: I can't tell at a glance that "Property: initialize" is a lower-level hading than "Returns" (although I can make that inference when I see "Examples" and "Class example" right next to each other).

On 21/03/13 07:32, Benjamin Kuker wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:
  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?
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www.barryvan.com.au

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

hartum
In reply to this post by Benjamin Kuker

*no fucking way to move this image :-P


Hello everyone

I agree that it is time to redesign the site, bearing in mind two main objectives, usability and self-promotion.

It seems important to separate these two issues in order to better organize work to do and design a strategy to be successful (by the way, very good target list Benjamin).

For promotion is essential to establish channels of communication between the
Mootool's community and social channels (twitter, facebook, etc. ..)

For usability, there are a few points that I would like (please do not take these comments as a personal attack, not):

  • Rarely homepage is a key page. [...] The purpose of the home page is usually the direct users of the authentic key pages, so we should focus our efforts on the design of the parts that are used, and then decide where we want to direct visitors. If someone from mootools core with access to the statistics could tell us what are the most visited pages, would be helpful
  • Usually is a good idea to do some mockups, to decide which elements are present and in that place, before deciding other visual elements such as colors, fonts, alignments and other. There are plenty of online tools to make and share mockups, I suggest a few:
    - Mockflow
    - Mockingbird
    - Fluid IA
  • I agree that the proposed design documentation, not comfortable. In my opinion it is more comfortable, 3-column structure in tree. Look at image at the top
I can help with mockups, design and Spanish translation.

Loose thoughts and opinions:

In my opinion the spirit of mootools should be a little more ambitious, enough of the topic:
"Mootools is for developers and jQuery is for designers who do not want to learn to program"

Mootools can do the same visual tricks on jQuery DOM, and also is a great tool for developers who want to do more serious things. Try to create a new topic:
"Mootools, great for designers and professional tool for developers"

I make reference to jQuery so, not because I look like an enemy to fight, I really do not think jQuery is an enemy, but if you think it is a model of success that we can learn several things. I do not know what the job situation in your countries, but in Spain I assure you that jQuery is a "de facto" standard and a requirement demanded in the job offers.
The idea is not to pit against jQuery Mootools but use their fame to draw attention to Mootools.

I do not want to enter the debate, "mootools is not about
animations and changing colors, mootools is to do, blah, blah, blah ...." well that it is a multipurpose framework with incredible capabilities, but what caught my attention first were "the fireworks", and then discovered that there was much more.
The fact is that it is easier to attract people to the community if you first call your attention. It is difficult to show all there under the surface if no one is watching.


Another issue with which I disagree (sorry Benjamin) is to use a small and unknown CSS framework (VirtuosiMedia) for the layout of the site, rather than take the fame and the community behind Bootstrap. I think if one of the basic ideas of the redesign is to promote, using Bootstrap will make people realize that you can still use the Mootools library with Bootstrap. Again this is not to make enemies if not allies, to use force of contrary to our own benefit.



Let me know what do you think about all this.

Regards (and sorry about my english)

El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 03:01:04 UTC+1, Benjamin Kuker escribió:
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:

  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Arian Stolwijk-2
I see no reason to use Bootstrap on MooTools.net. Bootstrap is great for prototyping a website or quickly putting something together. MooTools.net should look professional and not something that is put together in a few hours.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:53 AM, hartum <[hidden email]> wrote:

*no fucking way to move this image :-P


Hello everyone

I agree that it is time to redesign the site, bearing in mind two main objectives, usability and self-promotion.

It seems important to separate these two issues in order to better organize work to do and design a strategy to be successful (by the way, very good target list Benjamin).

For promotion is essential to establish channels of communication between the
Mootool's community and social channels (twitter, facebook, etc. ..)

For usability, there are a few points that I would like (please do not take these comments as a personal attack, not):

  • Rarely homepage is a key page. [...] The purpose of the home page is usually the direct users of the authentic key pages, so we should focus our efforts on the design of the parts that are used, and then decide where we want to direct visitors. If someone from mootools core with access to the statistics could tell us what are the most visited pages, would be helpful
  • Usually is a good idea to do some mockups, to decide which elements are present and in that place, before deciding other visual elements such as colors, fonts, alignments and other. There are plenty of online tools to make and share mockups, I suggest a few:
    - Mockflow
    - Mockingbird
    - Fluid IA
  • I agree that the proposed design documentation, not comfortable. In my opinion it is more comfortable, 3-column structure in tree. Look at image at the top
I can help with mockups, design and Spanish translation.

Loose thoughts and opinions:

In my opinion the spirit of mootools should be a little more ambitious, enough of the topic:
"Mootools is for developers and jQuery is for designers who do not want to learn to program"

Mootools can do the same visual tricks on jQuery DOM, and also is a great tool for developers who want to do more serious things. Try to create a new topic:
"Mootools, great for designers and professional tool for developers"

I make reference to jQuery so, not because I look like an enemy to fight, I really do not think jQuery is an enemy, but if you think it is a model of success that we can learn several things. I do not know what the job situation in your countries, but in Spain I assure you that jQuery is a "de facto" standard and a requirement demanded in the job offers.
The idea is not to pit against jQuery Mootools but use their fame to draw attention to Mootools.

I do not want to enter the debate, "mootools is not about
animations and changing colors, mootools is to do, blah, blah, blah ...." well that it is a multipurpose framework with incredible capabilities, but what caught my attention first were "the fireworks", and then discovered that there was much more.
The fact is that it is easier to attract people to the community if you first call your attention. It is difficult to show all there under the surface if no one is watching.


Another issue with which I disagree (sorry Benjamin) is to use a small and unknown CSS framework (VirtuosiMedia) for the layout of the site, rather than take the fame and the community behind Bootstrap. I think if one of the basic ideas of the redesign is to promote, using Bootstrap will make people realize that you can still use the Mootools library with Bootstrap. Again this is not to make enemies if not allies, to use force of contrary to our own benefit.



Let me know what do you think about all this.

Regards (and sorry about my english)

El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 03:01:04 UTC+1, Benjamin Kuker escribió:
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:

  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Lee Goddard
In reply to this post by hartum

1. Can we please make each page's TOC alphabetical? 

2. I agree with the jQuery points you make below. It would be great to have info on how to easily and quickly replicate jQuery's pretty tricks, and it might even be an idea to have some prominent info on using MT alongside jQ.

3. I would every sub-class (Request.JSON) to clearly state it is a sub-class, and to clearly link to the parent class. It took me ages to find the 'emulation' when first using Request.JSON!


On 21 Mar 2013, at 11:53, hartum wrote:

*no fucking way to move this image :-P


Hello everyone

I agree that it is time to redesign the site, bearing in mind two main objectives, usability and self-promotion.

It seems important to separate these two issues in order to better organize work to do and design a strategy to be successful (by the way, very good target list Benjamin).

For promotion is essential to establish channels of communication between the
Mootool's community and social channels (twitter, facebook, etc. ..)

For usability, there are a few points that I would like (please do not take these comments as a personal attack, not):

  • Rarely homepage is a key page. [...] The purpose of the home page is usually the direct users of the authentic key pages, so we should focus our efforts on the design of the parts that are used, and then decide where we want to direct visitors. If someone from mootools core with access to the statistics could tell us what are the most visited pages, would be helpful
  • Usually is a good idea to do some mockups, to decide which elements are present and in that place, before deciding other visual elements such as colors, fonts, alignments and other. There are plenty of online tools to make and share mockups, I suggest a few:
    - Mockflow
    - Mockingbird
    - Fluid IA
  • I agree that the proposed design documentation, not comfortable. In my opinion it is more comfortable, 3-column structure in tree. Look at image at the top
I can help with mockups, design and Spanish translation.

Loose thoughts and opinions:

In my opinion the spirit of mootools should be a little more ambitious, enough of the topic:
"Mootools is for developers and jQuery is for designers who do not want to learn to program"

Mootools can do the same visual tricks on jQuery DOM, and also is a great tool for developers who want to do more serious things. Try to create a new topic:
"Mootools, great for designers and professional tool for developers"

I make reference to jQuery so, not because I look like an enemy to fight, I really do not think jQuery is an enemy, but if you think it is a model of success that we can learn several things. I do not know what the job situation in your countries, but in Spain I assure you that jQuery is a "de facto" standard and a requirement demanded in the job offers.
The idea is not to pit against jQuery Mootools but use their fame to draw attention to Mootools.

I do not want to enter the debate, "mootools is not about
animations and changing colors, mootools is to do, blah, blah, blah ...." well that it is a multipurpose framework with incredible capabilities, but what caught my attention first were "the fireworks", and then discovered that there was much more.
The fact is that it is easier to attract people to the community if you first call your attention. It is difficult to show all there under the surface if no one is watching.


Another issue with which I disagree (sorry Benjamin) is to use a small and unknown CSS framework (VirtuosiMedia) for the layout of the site, rather than take the fame and the community behind Bootstrap. I think if one of the basic ideas of the redesign is to promote, using Bootstrap will make people realize that you can still use the Mootools library with Bootstrap. Again this is not to make enemies if not allies, to use force of contrary to our own benefit.



Let me know what do you think about all this.

Regards (and sorry about my english)

El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 03:01:04 UTC+1, Benjamin Kuker escribió:
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:

  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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[Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

piotr_cz-3
In reply to this post by Benjamin Kuker
Hi, this looks great!

I like current website, but weakest point IMHO is that it looks like
Mootools stopped at 1.2.

I'd add as much of dynamic things as possible:
- Blogpost titles with introtext
- Newest / most popular forge items
- User group post titles (like in http://developer.joomla.org/)

Than some code examples with links to docs/ demos on front page for
best picks (classes, ajax, seleoctor, etc)
I think this is very important for fresh visitors

Like in
http://mootools.net/test/prime/
http://jquery.com/ ;)
or any almost repo at github



On Mar 20, 10:28 pm, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a result of a conversation in another thread about helping jumpstart the
> MooTools community and development, I thought I would try my hand at
> refreshing the look of the website. A couple things before I share the
> links to the mockups, though.
>
>    1. The look of the current website isn't bad. I've done my best to try
>    to capture the spirit of it in the mockups while still making it new.
>    2. This would be more of a facelift than a complete overhaul. I'm not
>    completely sure how everything is pulled into the site from GitHub, but I
>    don't think there would have to be any major content rewrites.
>    3. The purpose for the redesign is to show the community that MooTools
>    is still alive and active, while making some slight improvements.
>
> The primary goals are:
>
>    1. Make it easier for new users to figure out what to do and get started.
>    2. Maintain the same general structure for existing MooTools users in
>    order to minimize friction because of the transition.
>    3. Place a bigger emphasis on community.
>    4. Make the site responsive and accessible for mobile devices. For this,
>    I would use my new UI framework<https://github.com/VirtuosiMedia/VM-UI-Framework>,
>    based on MooTools.
>
> I've only created two image mockups at this point to get feedback before
> going any further. I've put them up on GitHub<https://github.com/VirtuosiMedia/MooTools-Website-Mockups>.
> Here are the mockups for a new front page<https://raw.github.com/VirtuosiMedia/MooTools-Website-Mockups/master/...>and a documentation
> page<https://raw.github.com/VirtuosiMedia/MooTools-Website-Mockups/master/...>(you'll probably have to enlarge them in your browser).
>
> For the front page, I wanted to make it clearer what to do when you get
> there. The current page has a lot of text, which I wanted to reduce and
> streamline. I also felt that visually showing the logos of sites using
> MooTools is much more impactful than just using links. The footer, which
> would appear on every page of the site, would have dynamic links to the
> blog, as well as links to various social media accounts or communities
> which already exist. This will make blog updates more apparent, grow the
> community in more channels, and have the added benefit of more SEO power to
> the link targets.
>
> The docs page is largely unchanged from its current form. I did remove the
> left column in favor of a two column layout to make more room for the
> actual content. The Core classes navigation would all be viewable by
> clicking on the gray "View All Core Classes" button, which would slide them
> into view. The large title across the top would also function as a
> breadcrumb.
>
> So, all that said, I'd love to get your feedback. Do you love it? Hate it?
> Have suggestions for improvements? This is just a first iteration and the
> margins and alignment aren't all perfect yet, I just wanted to get
> something out there. The next steps would be to iterate based on feedback,
> produce more mockups for different pages on the site, and then to do a live
> prototype. It would also be helpful if someone could explain how the
> website is currently compiled, as that might have some impact on the design
> and implementation. Can't wait to hear what you think.

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

hartum
In reply to this post by Arian Stolwijk-2
I was talking about use Bootstrap as base CSS framework, mainly for responsive layout, not as final CSS. ;-)
With some extra CSS code website could look as professional as we want.

Anyway I think the discussion about the look must come after, mockup discussion.



El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 12:02:17 UTC+1, Arian Stolwijk escribió:
I see no reason to use Bootstrap on MooTools.net. Bootstrap is great for prototyping a website or quickly putting something together. MooTools.net should look professional and not something that is put together in a few hours.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:53 AM, hartum <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="Cj1V_I_HQ-UJ">har...@...> wrote:

*no fucking way to move this image :-P


Hello everyone

I agree that it is time to redesign the site, bearing in mind two main objectives, usability and self-promotion.

It seems important to separate these two issues in order to better organize work to do and design a strategy to be successful (by the way, very good target list Benjamin).

For promotion is essential to establish channels of communication between the
Mootool's community and social channels (twitter, facebook, etc. ..)

For usability, there are a few points that I would like (please do not take these comments as a personal attack, not):

  • Rarely homepage is a key page. [...] The purpose of the home page is usually the direct users of the authentic key pages, so we should focus our efforts on the design of the parts that are used, and then decide where we want to direct visitors. If someone from mootools core with access to the statistics could tell us what are the most visited pages, would be helpful
  • Usually is a good idea to do some mockups, to decide which elements are present and in that place, before deciding other visual elements such as colors, fonts, alignments and other. There are plenty of online tools to make and share mockups, I suggest a few:
    - Mockflow
    - Mockingbird
    - Fluid IA
  • I agree that the proposed design documentation, not comfortable. In my opinion it is more comfortable, 3-column structure in tree. Look at image at the top
I can help with mockups, design and Spanish translation.

Loose thoughts and opinions:

In my opinion the spirit of mootools should be a little more ambitious, enough of the topic:
"Mootools is for developers and jQuery is for designers who do not want to learn to program"

Mootools can do the same visual tricks on jQuery DOM, and also is a great tool for developers who want to do more serious things. Try to create a new topic:
"Mootools, great for designers and professional tool for developers"

I make reference to jQuery so, not because I look like an enemy to fight, I really do not think jQuery is an enemy, but if you think it is a model of success that we can learn several things. I do not know what the job situation in your countries, but in Spain I assure you that jQuery is a "de facto" standard and a requirement demanded in the job offers.
The idea is not to pit against jQuery Mootools but use their fame to draw attention to Mootools.

I do not want to enter the debate, "mootools is not about
animations and changing colors, mootools is to do, blah, blah, blah ...." well that it is a multipurpose framework with incredible capabilities, but what caught my attention first were "the fireworks", and then discovered that there was much more.
The fact is that it is easier to attract people to the community if you first call your attention. It is difficult to show all there under the surface if no one is watching.


Another issue with which I disagree (sorry Benjamin) is to use a small and unknown CSS framework (VirtuosiMedia) for the layout of the site, rather than take the fame and the community behind Bootstrap. I think if one of the basic ideas of the redesign is to promote, using Bootstrap will make people realize that you can still use the Mootools library with Bootstrap. Again this is not to make enemies if not allies, to use force of contrary to our own benefit.



Let me know what do you think about all this.

Regards (and sorry about my english)

El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 03:01:04 UTC+1, Benjamin Kuker escribió:
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:

  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Arian Stolwijk-2


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:03 PM, hartum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I was talking about use Bootstrap as base CSS framework, mainly for responsive layout, not as final CSS. ;-)
With some extra CSS code website could look as professional as we want.

Anyway I think the discussion about the look must come after, mockup discussion.



El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 12:02:17 UTC+1, Arian Stolwijk escribió:
I see no reason to use Bootstrap on MooTools.net. Bootstrap is great for prototyping a website or quickly putting something together. MooTools.net should look professional and not something that is put together in a few hours.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 11:53 AM, hartum <[hidden email]> wrote:

*no fucking way to move this image :-P


Hello everyone

I agree that it is time to redesign the site, bearing in mind two main objectives, usability and self-promotion.

It seems important to separate these two issues in order to better organize work to do and design a strategy to be successful (by the way, very good target list Benjamin).

For promotion is essential to establish channels of communication between the
Mootool's community and social channels (twitter, facebook, etc. ..)

For usability, there are a few points that I would like (please do not take these comments as a personal attack, not):

  • Rarely homepage is a key page. [...] The purpose of the home page is usually the direct users of the authentic key pages, so we should focus our efforts on the design of the parts that are used, and then decide where we want to direct visitors. If someone from mootools core with access to the statistics could tell us what are the most visited pages, would be helpful
  • Usually is a good idea to do some mockups, to decide which elements are present and in that place, before deciding other visual elements such as colors, fonts, alignments and other. There are plenty of online tools to make and share mockups, I suggest a few:
    - Mockflow
    - Mockingbird
    - Fluid IA
  • I agree that the proposed design documentation, not comfortable. In my opinion it is more comfortable, 3-column structure in tree. Look at image at the top
I can help with mockups, design and Spanish translation.

Loose thoughts and opinions:

In my opinion the spirit of mootools should be a little more ambitious, enough of the topic:
"Mootools is for developers and jQuery is for designers who do not want to learn to program"

Mootools can do the same visual tricks on jQuery DOM, and also is a great tool for developers who want to do more serious things. Try to create a new topic:
"Mootools, great for designers and professional tool for developers"

I make reference to jQuery so, not because I look like an enemy to fight, I really do not think jQuery is an enemy, but if you think it is a model of success that we can learn several things. I do not know what the job situation in your countries, but in Spain I assure you that jQuery is a "de facto" standard and a requirement demanded in the job offers.
The idea is not to pit against jQuery Mootools but use their fame to draw attention to Mootools.

I do not want to enter the debate, "mootools is not about
animations and changing colors, mootools is to do, blah, blah, blah ...." well that it is a multipurpose framework with incredible capabilities, but what caught my attention first were "the fireworks", and then discovered that there was much more.
The fact is that it is easier to attract people to the community if you first call your attention. It is difficult to show all there under the surface if no one is watching.


Another issue with which I disagree (sorry Benjamin) is to use a small and unknown CSS framework (VirtuosiMedia) for the layout of the site, rather than take the fame and the community behind Bootstrap. I think if one of the basic ideas of the redesign is to promote, using Bootstrap will make people realize that you can still use the Mootools library with Bootstrap. Again this is not to make enemies if not allies, to use force of contrary to our own benefit.



Let me know what do you think about all this.

Regards (and sorry about my english)

El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 03:01:04 UTC+1, Benjamin Kuker escribió:
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:

  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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[Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

pixel67
In reply to this post by Benjamin Kuker
That's a fine start!

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:28:57 PM UTC-4, Benjamin Kuker wrote:
As a result of a conversation in another thread about helping jumpstart the MooTools community and development, I thought I would try my hand at refreshing the look of the website. A couple things before I share the links to the mockups, though.
  1. The look of the current website isn't bad. I've done my best to try to capture the spirit of it in the mockups while still making it new.
  2. This would be more of a facelift than a complete overhaul. I'm not completely sure how everything is pulled into the site from GitHub, but I don't think there would have to be any major content rewrites.
  3. The purpose for the redesign is to show the community that MooTools is still alive and active, while making some slight improvements.
The primary goals are:
  1. Make it easier for new users to figure out what to do and get started.
  2. Maintain the same general structure for existing MooTools users in order to minimize friction because of the transition.
  3. Place a bigger emphasis on community.
  4. Make the site responsive and accessible for mobile devices. For this, I would use my new UI framework, based on MooTools.
I've only created two image mockups at this point to get feedback before going any further. I've put them up on GitHub. Here are the mockups for a new front page and a documentation page (you'll probably have to enlarge them in your browser).

For the front page, I wanted to make it clearer what to do when you get there. The current page has a lot of text, which I wanted to reduce and streamline. I also felt that visually showing the logos of sites using MooTools is much more impactful than just using links. The footer, which would appear on every page of the site, would have dynamic links to the blog, as well as links to various social media accounts or communities which already exist. This will make blog updates more apparent, grow the community in more channels, and have the added benefit of more SEO power to the link targets.

The docs page is largely unchanged from its current form. I did remove the left column in favor of a two column layout to make more room for the actual content. The Core classes navigation would all be viewable by clicking on the gray "View All Core Classes" button, which would slide them into view. The large title across the top would also function as a breadcrumb.

So, all that said, I'd love to get your feedback. Do you love it? Hate it? Have suggestions for improvements? This is just a first iteration and the margins and alignment aren't all perfect yet, I just wanted to get something out there. The next steps would be to iterate based on feedback, produce more mockups for different pages on the site, and then to do a live prototype. It would also be helpful if someone could explain how the website is currently compiled, as that might have some impact on the design and implementation. Can't wait to hear what you think.

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Dimitar Christoff
In reply to this post by Arian Stolwijk-2

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 11:02:17 AM UTC, Arian Stolwijk wrote:
> I see no reason to use Bootstrap on MooTools.net. Bootstrap is great for prototyping a website or quickly putting something together. MooTools.net should look professional and not something that is put together in a few hours.

Using bootstrap does not mean using the bootstrap look at feel.

start here: http://antjanus.com/blog/web-design-tips/user-interface-usability/customize-twitter-bootstrap-into-themes/

there are so many bootstrap theme generators etc but that's not the point. no matter the polish, bootstrap is - at its core - a responsive grid based OO CSS framework. It has a number of useful mixins and predefined styles - but neither of them need to be employed. the semantic markup and expressive class decoration on elements that is familiar means a far greater number of people will be able to contribute and maintain this than compared to a bespoke or relatively unknown framework. you should also look at bootstrap 3.0-wip branch, it's becoming a lot flatter / google+ ish now, which means more generic and less familiar.

there are enough smart people around here and talented designers that have what it takes to alter bootstrap and make it less twittery and more ZING.

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Re: [Moo] Re: First attempt at a MooTools website redesign. Thoughts?

Benjamin Kuker
In reply to this post by hartum
While Bootstrap is a great project, I would recommend against MooTools using it for the following reasons:

  1. It's jQuery based and it's closely affiliated with jQuery in terms of public mind share. If MooTools were to start using it, I think it that the perceived uniqueness of MooTools would be greatly diminished. We're simply not a part of the jQuery ecosystem and I don't think we should strive to be.
  2. There are a number of Bootstrap ports to MooTools, but to the best of my knowledge, none of them are complete ports or drop-in replacements. I also don't think any of them are compatible with the latest version of Bootstrap. Using Bootstrap would mean extra work in developing the missing parts and upgrading one of the ports to the latest version, time that could be spent doing something else.
  3. In a jQuery group, the argument that Bootstrap should be used because it is popular would carry more weight, but for a MooTools group, I think that it means less. Though I'm sure some do, I would hope that not too many people are using both Bootstrap and MooTools on the same project, at least, not without a port.
I'm not sure how closely you've looked at VM UI Framework, but I think there are some valid reasons to use it.
  1. It's 100% MooTools based. No need for converting scripts or writing missing pieces in.
  2. Not only does it have feature parity with Bootstrap, but it has additional features as well. Charts, form validation, social widgets, and form element replacements are just a few of the features that are included that aren't present in Bootstrap. I would argue that it's also more semantic than Bootstrap. For example, button classes: "largeInfoButton" vs. "btn btn-large btn-info". Many of the plugins that it shares with Bootstrap like modal windows and the slideshow also have more features and options.
  3. Despite the added features, the page weight is going to be less in most instances. Bootstrap uses LESS, which has some advantages for development, but in practice produces a lot of extra code. My framework is carefully optimized CSS only, which reduces the page weight considerably. Being CSS-only also makes it more accessible to developers who don't use LESS. Because of MooTools, most of the plugins are either at about the same file size or less than Bootstrap as well.
  4. VM UI Framework is well documented. It is unknown because it's still in beta and I haven't been promoting it much yet, but you're not going to have a hard time figuring out how to use it.
  5. There are currently 3 templates to choose from, one of which is a skeleton template, made specifically to be customized. This means you don't have to spend a bunch of time ripping out code you don't need. You simply add to the base.
  6. It's completely modular. Take what you need, leave what you don't.
  7. It gives the MooTools community a viable alternative to Bootstrap. Yes, it's still in beta, but any issues logged and any bugs fixed directly benefit the community at large. Bootstrap is accelerating jQuery's momentum. MooTools could differentiate itself by offering and supporting another responsive UI solution. Coalescing around Bootstrap isn't any different than having only one JavaScript framework or only one browser. In the end, I think the competition would be to everyone's benefit.

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 3:53:36 AM UTC-7, hartum wrote:

*no fucking way to move this image :-P


Hello everyone

I agree that it is time to redesign the site, bearing in mind two main objectives, usability and self-promotion.

It seems important to separate these two issues in order to better organize work to do and design a strategy to be successful (by the way, very good target list Benjamin).

For promotion is essential to establish channels of communication between the
Mootool's community and social channels (twitter, facebook, etc. ..)

For usability, there are a few points that I would like (please do not take these comments as a personal attack, not):

  • Rarely homepage is a key page. [...] The purpose of the home page is usually the direct users of the authentic key pages, so we should focus our efforts on the design of the parts that are used, and then decide where we want to direct visitors. If someone from mootools core with access to the statistics could tell us what are the most visited pages, would be helpful
  • Usually is a good idea to do some mockups, to decide which elements are present and in that place, before deciding other visual elements such as colors, fonts, alignments and other. There are plenty of online tools to make and share mockups, I suggest a few:
    - Mockflow
    - Mockingbird
    - Fluid IA
  • I agree that the proposed design documentation, not comfortable. In my opinion it is more comfortable, 3-column structure in tree. Look at image at the top
I can help with mockups, design and Spanish translation.

Loose thoughts and opinions:

In my opinion the spirit of mootools should be a little more ambitious, enough of the topic:
"Mootools is for developers and jQuery is for designers who do not want to learn to program"

Mootools can do the same visual tricks on jQuery DOM, and also is a great tool for developers who want to do more serious things. Try to create a new topic:
"Mootools, great for designers and professional tool for developers"

I make reference to jQuery so, not because I look like an enemy to fight, I really do not think jQuery is an enemy, but if you think it is a model of success that we can learn several things. I do not know what the job situation in your countries, but in Spain I assure you that jQuery is a "de facto" standard and a requirement demanded in the job offers.
The idea is not to pit against jQuery Mootools but use their fame to draw attention to Mootools.

I do not want to enter the debate, "mootools is not about
animations and changing colors, mootools is to do, blah, blah, blah ...." well that it is a multipurpose framework with incredible capabilities, but what caught my attention first were "the fireworks", and then discovered that there was much more.
The fact is that it is easier to attract people to the community if you first call your attention. It is difficult to show all there under the surface if no one is watching.


Another issue with which I disagree (sorry Benjamin) is to use a small and unknown CSS framework (VirtuosiMedia) for the layout of the site, rather than take the fame and the community behind Bootstrap. I think if one of the basic ideas of the redesign is to promote, using Bootstrap will make people realize that you can still use the Mootools library with Bootstrap. Again this is not to make enemies if not allies, to use force of contrary to our own benefit.



Let me know what do you think about all this.

Regards (and sorry about my english)

El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2013 03:01:04 UTC+1, Benjamin Kuker escribió:
Thanks, Erik. What you wrote mirrors my own sentiment as well. I really feel like the community is the key thing to spark here. Sure, the Core code could use updates from time to time, especially with all the new devices joining the market, but it's pretty mature and has a sensible API. Personally, there isn't a ton I would change about it, though I have a few minor ideas. Really, though, I think that most of the future of MooTools could live on through plugins, which allows anyone to contribute to the ecosystem without needing to make a huge commitment. We all benefit from that. We have a good start with the Forge, but I think we could do even more.

The biggest part to growing and revitalizing the community, in my opinion, is to make it easier for new users to dive in. This is an area where jQuery has excelled. Even though MooTools is currently marketed toward intermediate and advanced JavaScript developers, I think the majority of web developers probably aren't there and simply want to download a plugin to make a neat widget on a page. Do you need to change the API to be more jQuery-like? Not at all. I think we just need to do a little better job of explaining things to developers who have no idea how to use or build out object-oriented classes, why they would want to do that, and how to use MooTools if you just want to include a plugin on your page. Aaron has done a lot of that with the MooTorial and with his jQuery vs MooTools site, but it can't hurt to have more.

Here are some ideas that I'd like to throw out there as a possible roadmap:

- Start with the redesign of the site to start regenerating interest.
- Pay attention to things like SEO and social throughout. Page title and descriptions, good anchor text, no missing content or funny redirects, microdata, etc.
- Rename the forge to plugins to make it more accessible and SEO friendly.
- Add social sharing widgets on the individual plugin pages and blog posts.
- Hook up all of the social media accounts so that they are updated automatically whenever a new blog post or plugin is added. We could even add a mailing list that sends a weekly digest through something like MailChimp.
- Expand the current demo suite with more examples.
- Use jsFiddle to put actual demos in the documentation for each class, with an emphasis on practical examples and best practices.
- Rework the Forge slightly to add a custom download feature. Basically, this would work the same way as a shopping cart: you add which plugins you want to download and when you "checkout", it grabs all of the necessary MooTools Core/More dependencies along with the plugins and packages it all together for you.
- Along with the above, maybe More could be broken up and moved completely to the plugins section to simplify things for new users.
- The plugin instructions are great, but we could also add a plugin template on GitHub that people can just fork whenever they want to create a new plugin.
- Similar to the current Forge, we could create a directory for MooTools resources that anyone could submit to: books, tutorials, videos, and a community showcase.
- Add more beginner tutorials. I'd be willing to write some and I'm sure others would too.
- Watch the MooTools tag on StackOverflow and similar sites and try to help out as much as possible.
- Submit a package to PHP's Composer and get an updated Ruby Gem for the latest builds of MooTools. I'm not familiar with them, but I'm sure Python, Node, and other languages have something similar. It would be great to have an interface in there for plugins as well.
- Personally, I'd love to see more resources develop around testing JavaScript. I know MooTools has a test runner, but I'd love more docs and tutorials on how to adapt that to my own code. If we could make testing more accessible, I think we could draw in a lot more professionals as well.

Obviously, I can't commit to doing all of that on my own, but I thought maybe I could start a discussion and maybe get the ball rolling.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:41:37 PM UTC-7, Erik Cervin Edin wrote:
This is cleaner, 
nice work!

I agree that a redesigning the site would send a strong message. Or rather, that the site as it is doesn't look maintained. There's nothing on the site that gives the indication that the framework is being updated or worked on. Since most people will only see the MooTools website & not places like this Google group, I don't think it's strange people perceive the framework/community as 'dying'. Evidently from this group, however, the community is still very much active and I think it's important that this shows.
As you've mentioned before Aaron, the primary focus of MooTools has not been community, so I gather that valuable time & resources were probably less so spent on maintaining the website. I think it is important, however, to spend more time & resources on the MooTools website & its Social Media channels, as they represent MooTools externally. People will make superficial assumptions about the MooTools community and the framework, based on MooTools' online presence. I think this is a great first step in showing people that this show is still going on.


I had no idea that jQuery had such a good site ranking, it's 761! (Moo is at 26,333)
jQ has a lot of sites linking in: 43,055 vs Moo's 5,971

A big reason for jQuery's success seems to be the SEO snowball like effect created by its large community. Constantly talking about, referring and linking to the framework, pulling in more and more users. As these users learn the framework, they post queries (pun intended), building upon the knowledge base and attracting new users. The circle repeats itself, building a Web 2.0 community that has become very effective at promoting, maintaining and supporting the framework. 

I think Moo has a lot to gain from a stronger community. A good place to start seems to be increasing the engagement of the existing community and getting out more user-generated content that relates to the framework, on top of keeping its external presence vibrant. This can be simple stuff - answering questions on message boards, explaining & linking to the documentation, providing alternative MooTools solutions to jQuery ones etc. Doing a little bit each person, and as a group, building a stronger community.

-my €0.02

But yeah Benjamin, loving the work, keep at it.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Benjamin Kuker <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'm glad you like the general direction. A couple follow-up questions before I update the mocks:

  • My original intention was for the download button to just link to the download page, where you could customize your build and download older versions as well. I didn't put the version number on it because, in my mind, that implied just a direct download of that specific version, whereas the generic download label would be less confusing if it led to the download page. Still, that an incredibly small detail and I'm fine either way.
  • I can definitely shrink the main icons. I think I want to add a fifth one in there for the docs page anyways, so that works.
  • How would you feel about adding a "Resources" page to the main navigation? I didn't include the books on the front page because I thought they might be better suited for a page like that, but I could add them back in if people think the front page is the best spot for them.
  • Would it be too spammy to include a link to my UI framework in the footer if the redesign utilizes it? The framework itself is open source, MooTools-based, and not a direct clone/port of Bootstrap, but it will eventually have an optional commercial tool/service for it as well. I've put a ton work into it and hope that it will eventually become the MooTools alternative to Bootstrap. Taking in your suggestion, Aaron, I was thinking about a link along the lines of "Made responsive with VM UI Framework". However, if people feel uncomfortable about that, I could leave it out of the footer.
  • I forgot to add anything related to Media Temple. What exactly is the relationship? Are they a sponsor? Should I add something similar to the current site?

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